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Post by paulpogue on Dec 10, 2009 15:24:43 GMT -8
Well, yeah, they might not know it as much as we do, but to be honest, I don't much care what they THINK so much as what they DO. The guy who actually spent six pages saying "I'm not sorry" has erased himself from existence.
Barring some massive twist in the next couple of issues, Marvel has essentially deleted Iron Fascist from 616 Earth. In about the only way they could reasonably get away with it and still have Cap yell "Avengers Assemble" for a big heroic Thor/Cap/Iron Man moment that doesn't ring incredibly false.
Even without interviews from creators, the on-page conclusion is unmistakably clear: Cap was right, Iron Man was wrong, and Iron Man's methods led directly to a worldwide villain takeover and Tony's own virtual suicide. I don't think it can get much clearer than that, at least in-universe. Even Tony's method, which required not only the consent but the active participation of Thor and Cap, is a clear admission that the Thor/Cap/Iron Man trinity is more important than the SHRA.
As for OMD/BND, you're probably right -- that said, I still expect we'll see the backdoor eventually from this gang. It'll just take a lot more time and denial on their part.
I'm not saying it's perfect, or ideal, but I can live with it, just like I understood that something as big as Heroes Return and a soft-reset button was the only way to clear the decks and get back to good storytelling after the Clone Saga, The Crossing and Just Imagine Rob Liefeld Created The Marvel Universe.
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Post by paulpogue on Dec 10, 2009 18:57:21 GMT -8
You know, aside from all the big stuff like Tony getting his brain reset and Steve coming back, it's kind of interesting, in a trainwreck sort of way, to see all the ways things are getting walked back to about 2004. With most of them being done in sort of shoulders-shrugging, "Eh, we've wrung this one out as far as it goes" kid of way. The New Warriors are essentially back where they were. The New X-Warriors are disbanded (pity, too; I liked the idea of Heroic Armored Beak, even though it was never executed particularly well.) The Avengers will soon be reunited. Hell, Penance has been all but unraveled, and it's barely caused a ripple in the Internet, if only because damn near nobody cares. Mutants coming back is all but a certainty by now, and when it happens, it'll barely be an event.
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Post by paulpogue on Dec 10, 2009 19:50:24 GMT -8
Re: Secret Six #16 Odds that Gail Simone does all this just for me: 120 percent  |
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Dec 10, 2009 20:47:23 GMT -8
You know what? I'm gonna agree with you there  |
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Post by jensaltmann on Dec 10, 2009 23:44:57 GMT -8
So, yeah - we know we won, but them? Not so much. They know it too, they just won't admit it. That would lose them even more face, and they can't tolerate that. |
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 29, 2010 21:17:21 GMT -8
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Feb 13, 2010 16:24:26 GMT -8
We all called it, but hey...why not?  And unrelated Odds that if there is another season of Heroes it completely rips off "Rising Stars"? - 75% Odds that if this happens JMS' head will explode: 40% (and if you have any other ideas where the writers will steal their ideas, put'em here) |
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Post by Mario Di Giacomo on Feb 13, 2010 17:39:11 GMT -8
I don't watch the show... have they done the "ancient secret brotherhood related to the Illuminati/Knights Templar" yet?
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Feb 15, 2010 19:59:53 GMT -8
Wow...and I thought I was joking about Utopia being the Mutant Masada, and now it looks like Marvel's actually going for directly that reference in the latest solicits.
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Post by paulpogue on Mar 2, 2010 17:41:03 GMT -8
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Mar 2, 2010 17:49:56 GMT -8
Honestly? Don't know. It depends on what they think is the big "sub-plot" that they will wrap up.
To be honest, I'm not even sure I care at this point.
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Post by paulpogue on Mar 2, 2010 20:42:05 GMT -8
I believe him about as much as I believed Russell T. Davies when he said the Doctor Who series 4 finale would be a big wrapup that drew in plot elements going all the way back to the first episode of NuWho. And as we learned from Rusty, god bless 'im, there's a big difference between "yearslong story arc" and "halfassedly tying something in the end back to a throwaway bit from when you started all this years earlier."
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Post by jessebaker on Mar 2, 2010 20:43:28 GMT -8
Clone Saga ran what? 130-140 issues?
At this rate, I could see Quesada, when explaining why he was repeating the same mistake that got the previous EiC fired from his job, MAYBE making a deal with his superiors within the company to effectively have 100 issues/three years with BND before having to abort if sales continued to tank and the book remains in the shitter. Which ironically, would have put the "end" on it to 2011, when Spider-Man 4 was supposed to come out.
Clone Saga ran about two years.
The notion of a 100 issue arc could be Wacker laying the groundwork for the proverbial trapdoor to undo OMD/BND.
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Post by paulpogue on Mar 2, 2010 20:46:32 GMT -8
Wacker is just making shit up as he goes along: 50 percent
Wacker actually believes this based on logic like "Lily Hollister was introduced in 546; Lily's baby will be born in 650; CONFLUENCE!": 35 percent
Wacker actually believes this because it's true and they do have a big plan followed by an honest-to-god heavy-duty status-quo shift in 650: 14.99 percent
There's a plan and it ends with OMD being undone like they secretly planned all along: .001 percent
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Post by jessebaker on Mar 2, 2010 23:38:16 GMT -8
Wacker is just making shit up as he goes along: 50 percent Wacker actually believes this based on logic like "Lily Hollister was introduced in 546; Lily's baby will be born in 650; CONFLUENCE!": 35 percent Wacker actually believes this because it's true and they do have a big plan followed by an honest-to-god heavy-duty status-quo shift in 650: 14.99 percent There's a plan and it ends with OMD being undone like they secretly planned all along: .001 percent It would be interesting if Quesada DID have to agree to some sort of time-table for a trapdoor of sorts for BND the more I think about it. Even if it's a "We'll reunite MJ and Peter as a couple in three years minimum if BND bombs horribly and we have to back-peddle in order to save face" deal that keeps the retcon in place in order to get corporate to greenlight OMD/BND in the first place. That said, it's insane that they truly think that they can outlast their pissed off fanbase with this shit without running the franchise into the ground. I mean, even the variant cover thing is wearing thin and quite frankly, outside Bendis taking over the book (which isn't going to happen since the fucker is using "The Heroic Age" to further entrench himself into the Avengers franchise), how the hell can they expect to win in the end with tanking sales and overwhelming negative response? |
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