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Post by Johann Chua on Aug 1, 2009 4:35:29 GMT -8
Sometimes it seems that most Filipinos just want to be American, or at the very least turn the Philippines into a close facsimile of the U.S.A. Hollywood version, of course, instead of looking at other Asian countries or Latin America as models of development. The U.S. model only worked for the U.S.
I wonder whether most Chinese immigrants came here because it was harder to get into the U.S. Greenhills (which is mostly upper middle-class ethnic Chinese) is filled with streets named after American presidents and states. Of course that wave of immigration mostly happened before martial law, when we were richer than Japan (thanks in part to preferential tariffs on our exports to the U.S.).
Every now and then I hear that America is an experiment. Does that mean Americans are labrats?
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 4, 2009 15:28:00 GMT -8
Because it does.
Sorry. Them's just the facts. On a planet where we control 60% of the resources for 6 % of the population, where our attempts at imperialism piss off the rest of the planet, where our pollution and waste threten the entire world, the rest of the world wants to wear our clothes, watch our movies, buy from 7-11 and eat a Royale with Cheese at McDonalds. To be honest, the only country that comes anywhere close to us on that level at the moment is Japan.
No you're supposed to see that at some time in the past, each and every one of those nations acted in the same arrogant nationalistic way that we now do ourselves. We're not the first to act this way. We sure as hell won't be the last. Next up: China.
No. I brought up achievement. And I could go on.
Anders, I've been around a bit, and I've yet to see something that works better. And that's not to say I've been everywhere and seen everything, but some of the countries I've been to have been around awhile, and are in a lot worse shape than we are. Accuse us all you like, but something we do here works.
But that's not argued with. Every great nation in the past gets to a point where money and/or power overcome the whole point of the thing in the first place.
And it's not argued with. but don't bash Americans because we take pride in our nation. Or if you're going to, then by all means, have a go at Germany, Britain, France, China, Russia, Japan, Egypt, etc, etc... as well.
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Post by Anders on Aug 4, 2009 18:33:03 GMT -8
And again you completely miss my point. I'm not talking about achievement, or taking pride in one's nation. I'm talking about the attitude that the US is a different kind of nation than all others. Again, quantity vs. quality.
That others have had this attitude before or will have it later doesn't make it more reasonable now.
Also, which point are you arguing: that the US is a different kind of nation, chosen by God or whatever, and that the attitude is therefore justified (since the basis for it is true) or that the attitude is incorrect (because the US is the same kind of nation as any other, only more accomplished) but understandable?
And going from "best political system on paper" to "some of the countries I've been to [...] are in a lot worse shape than we are"? Pretty heavy backpedalling.
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 5, 2009 9:42:54 GMT -8
Not back pedaling at all. Still just waiting for some examples of what you're talking about because personal experience disagrees with you.
And I'm not missing your point at all. Just don't see how it applies when you consider that every other major world power feels the same way about itself at it's height of influence.
Hell, England, France and Japan are notorious for it.
So why do we get called for it, and yet no one else ever does? Although I'm sure if you're English, French or Japanese, you might feel like you're the ones being persecuted...
For instance, I don't see people from other nations complaing about the fact that Japan forces Korean immigrants into changing their names to Japanese surnames when they move to Japan.
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Post by Anders on Aug 5, 2009 11:28:40 GMT -8
And I'm not missing your point at all. Just don't see how it applies when you consider that every other major world power feels the same way about itself at it's height of influence. This quote shows exactly that you are not getting it at all.
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 5, 2009 12:59:04 GMT -8
Anders, you are basically saying that we here in America feel that we have some sort of God Given right to be at the top of the heap and that we're very vocal about it. That we come from someplace very special, and that we're very vocal about it. What's hard to understand about that?
What I am asking you is very simple as well. England, France, Japan, China, etc, etc, all do it as well. And have done it in the past. So would you please enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong about us doing it, but perfectly okay for them to do it?
If you still feel I am missing the point, than by all means, please explain.
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Post by Anders on Aug 5, 2009 13:42:42 GMT -8
It's the difference between being Special (as opposed to regular, lower-case special) and believing you are Special.
And I have never said that attitude is okay for anyone else, but the discussion originated with the US, specifically the discussion about why Americans are so opposed to ideas from other countries.
You're the one who has tried to justify the attitude by claiming that the US really is special, though sometimes it seems you see this as just an attitude that doesn't reflect reality. That's part of the reason why this discussion is so frustrating.
Nobody has said that this is a unique US thing, or that it's only when the US does it that it's wrong. That's something you've brought to the table, nobody else. I brought it up as an alternative explanation to Kirk's frontiersman attitude, and then you dragged it off into being some kind of attack on the US in general, which it never was meant to be.
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Post by jessebaker on Aug 5, 2009 15:44:49 GMT -8
Let's look at it this way: the American Dream is a double-edged sword, one that can bring out both the best and worst of people. A century ago, the "American Dream" was embodied by the best it brought out of people.
These days? The "American Dream" brings out the worst in people, as far as driving the greed and avarvce nature of American society to the forefront and basically replacing logic and responsibility with jingoistic "America Fuck Yeah!"isms, as far as America never ever anythin wrong and to even SUGGEST that America has done wrong or engaged in hypocritical behavior is blasphemy akin to hating America itself by way of walking down main street with a burning flag while screaming "Death to America". The sort of 100%ers who refuse to acknowledge reality itself as far as America that does indeed have flaws that need to be addressed.
America is indeed one of the greatest countries in the world ever to be founded, but we are FAR from perfect. From our failed health care system to slavery, to Bush and Cheney pretty much engaging in policies that negate nearly a century of America leading the way as far as moral high ground, we have a great number of problems and to not acknowledge these is to do a great disservice to America by turning a blind eye to them.
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 6, 2009 6:54:06 GMT -8
We sent people to the moon, developed a reusable spacecraft, been primarily responsible for most of the current mapping of the our solar systemn through telescope and probe, created Rock and Roll, (by the by, spawning from influences from numerous other cultures, primarily African, however) have turned mountains into sculpture, built vast sprawling cities equal or exceeding anything in Europe...
You don't think that maybe, just maybe, we might have some weight to our boasts?
And, also, no offense, but anyone who is under the impression that America is opposed to ideas from other countries has never been here. I invite you to come and visit. Particularly in microcosm, Boulder, Colorado, and walk down the Pearl Street mall anytime you like. Then come back and tell me that we're a nation opposed to ideas from other countries or influences from other cultures.
Sorry to cause frustration, but it's an idea of about I'm starting to feel in regards to how the rest of the world seems to see us, which is largely due to the after effects of the Bush Presidency.
Yes, we make a lot of mistakes. I agree. Yes, we come off as a bit imperialistic, I agree. Yes, we may be on our way down the food chain at this point.
But are we special? Yes. We are. And we've done a lot, particularly over the last 110 years to proove that.
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Post by Anders on Aug 6, 2009 7:34:52 GMT -8
(Lots of completely irrelevant stuff deleted) But are we special? Yes. We are. And we've done a lot, particularly over the last 110 years to proove that. And you're still missing the point, so let me ask you bluntly: Do you think the US is a different kind of nation than all others - not in accomplishments, but a priori? I'm not asking about Americans in general, or whether such a belief is justified or not, but what you personally believe. As for the argument about the lack receptiveness to ideas from other cultures, it was Kirk who brought that up, so discuss it with him. All I did was offer an alternative explanation to the frontiersman mindset that he suggested. Frankly Jard, though I can understand you being tired of the US being attacked you could at least try to stick to the actual arguments in the thread instead of lashing out at things nobody here has said.
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Post by jensaltmann on Aug 6, 2009 7:52:34 GMT -8
But are we special? Yes. We are. And we've done a lot, particularly over the last 110 years to proove that. No. You aren't. It happens to be your turn at the wheel, that is all. Before you jump down my throat about this, let me remind you: the Egyptians thought they were special. They weren't. They did a lot of noteworthy things during their time, but that time passed, and they went into obscurity. The Indians thought they were special. It turned out they weren't any more special than the Egyptians. The same went for the Greek, the Romans, the Chinese, the Mongols, the British, the French, the Germans. Throughout recorded history, there were always one or two nations that dominated. (I'm leaving out the American continents before the European Invasion, simply because I don't know enough about those histories.) Those nations inevitably believed themselves to be special. They dominated for a few years, maybe a couple of hundred years (although the half-life of that domination period has shortened a lot since the Renaissance). Most of them accomplished incredible things in their day. Then their dominance faded. Usually because some other nation, some other culture, ascended to dominance. Right now, it's the US's turn at the wheel. Right now, the US are dominant. You believe you are special, because you as a nation have accomplished incredible things (I count the Moon landings, but not RnR). A look at history, however, shows clearly that it's simply your turn at domination. As they say, those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Where is Egypt now? Greece? Rome? France? The US are about to join them, because you show the same signs that accompanied the fall of the other Dominions: you believe too much in your own specialness. You've become complacent. The next in line for domination? I don't really know. My money would be on either China or India. And when it's their turn, they will not be special either. It will simply be their turn at the wheel for a century or two or three. And yes, in that time, they will probably achieve incredible things that will make them think that they actually are special.
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 6, 2009 9:10:31 GMT -8
And thus it becomes a matter of opinion, because I would disagree with Jens and say, yes, during the time period that Egypt was on top of the game, that they were indeed special. Or in other words, standing out from the rest of the crowd. As did Greece, France, Germany, Italy, England, and now us, during their respective turns to be the big guy on the block.
Where he and I agree on is the following:
One does not preclude the other.
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Post by paulpogue on Aug 6, 2009 13:52:27 GMT -8
I think we're kind of missing the original point here, which is that the American sense of specialness is pervasive enough that we are ready to discard perfectly good ideas for no other reason -- none whatsoever -- than that they didn't come from America. Ever since "Socialism" didn't become a dirty enough word for the Republican party, they now spit out that the worst-case scenario for health care is "European-style socialism."
Special or not, that's a pretty stupid way to do politics.
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Post by jensaltmann on Aug 6, 2009 22:46:13 GMT -8
And thus it becomes a matter of opinion, because I would disagree with Jens and say, yes, during the time period that Egypt was on top of the game, that they were indeed special. Or in other words, standing out from the rest of the crowd. As did Greece, France, Germany, Italy, England, and now us, during their respective turns to be the big guy on the block. But not because of any inherent specialness, which is what you seem to be saying: "We're top dog because we're inherently special." Actually, it's when a culture actually believes it's inherently special, instead of working hard to achieve things, is when it declines. Because it no longer tries. It's too busy admiring itself. The US have reached that point during the Reagan years. I seriously believe that the age of the US will end within a century. If we're lucky, it will not be that the US will finally realize just how much outsourcing to China and India has cost them, which will make them try to take things back by force, this causing bloodshed. If we're lucky, it will be when China or India wake up to the fact that the rest of the world have outsourced so much work to them that they are now in a position where they can call the shots. Which might be a bloodless takeover of dominion. Me, I'm just glad that I'm old enough so that I won't necessarily live to see China take over the world. And that I don't have children who will have to live through what will happen during transition.
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Post by jarddavis on Aug 13, 2009 9:44:02 GMT -8
I think you'll see China go through a huge cultural change before it takes over the world.
The groundwork has been there since Hong Kong came back and Tianamen(?) Square. Capitalism is gaining ground more and more as time goes by.
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