The Doctor Who Thread

[jensaltmann]

The Last Centurion
Even the Doctor is a little bit afraid of him.

The Last Centurion.
You do NOT want to mess with his family.

[paulpogue]

It does nicely indeed . Thanks!

[michaelpaciocco]

OK, here you go - feel free to spread this along, so long as you link to my blog.

[paulpogue]

Incidentally, for those keeping score at home, a new addition to the Water Names list: Lorena Bucket.

Admittedly, a bit of a stretch, as it's not a body of water, but rather something one carries water IN. Still. Piling coincidence on coincidence tends to make quite a mountain after a while.

River Song had far too much extremely specific information on the Gamma Forests incident, particularly given that we're told the only significant day in that place's history is the time the Doctor showed up. We are far from done with the Gamma Forests, probably not done with "The only water in the forest," and certainly not done with Lorena Bucket.

[jensaltmann]

Jun 8, 2011 19:36:24 GMT -8 paulpogue said:

Incidentally, for those keeping score at home, a new addition to the Water Names list: Lorena Bucket.

Admittedly, a bit of a stretch, as it's not a body of water, but rather something one carries water IN. Still. Piling coincidence on coincidence tends to make quite a mountain after a while.

River Song had far too much extremely specific information on the Gamma Forests incident, particularly given that we're told the only significant day in that place's history is the time the Doctor showed up. We are far from done with the Gamma Forests, probably not done with "The only water in the forest," and certainly not done with Lorena Bucket.

Agreed, but for me it's less about her name (I hadn't caught that), or that River knew so much about it, but they really made the incident very very important to the episode. That's why I'm confident they intend to revisit it.

[paulpogue]

Just watched Torchwood: Children of Earth, years after everybody else. Two thoughts.

1. Holy god, DAVIES had this in him? This shit scared me more than Moffat on his freakiest day, and it's by far the most tightly plotted, intricate thing Davies ever penned. How he could simultaneously be working on this and something as sloppily structured as "The End of Time" is utterly beyond me.

2. In the end, this is all the Doctor's fucking fault. How does Prime Minister Harriet Jones, Architect of Britain's Golden Age, sound to you NOW, Ten?

[jbhelfrich]

Regarding Children of Earth, I think you answered your own question when you said "simultaneously."

Regarding the Omega symbol; I'm not up on pre-nine Dr Who lore. Is it significant?

Thoughts on the episode coming, though I probably have to watch it once more. But I was really, really hoping that "the only water in the forest" meant that we were going back to The Library. I really hate River being left there. They've certainly built in ways to get her out, with the Gangers and a trip in the Tardis making them real. Even filters out all the time-lord DNA issues, getting the Doctor back to being the last--unless of course, the point of this is to make more Time Lords.

[paulpogue]

One of the founders of Time Lord society, along with Rassilon, was named Omega. He of course went insane and became a cosmic-class villain, menacing the Fifth Doctor and the Third (with One and Two in tow.) Hasn't been seen for 30 years, but as far as unaddressed villains from the old days, he's second only to the White/Black Guardians in terms of sheer power and threat.

(There was a plan, just before the show was cancelled in 1987, to reveal the Doctor as another founder of Time Lord society, but that was ultimately only addressed in the novels and never became canon.)

I honestly think we're not done with "The Only Water in the Forest" yet.

[jbhelfrich]

Regarding Bucket, from twitter:

Hey @steven_moffat, What's the etymology of LORNA BUCKET? Some link between Pond, River, Rain, Leaky Ceiling, Bucket?

@kenners Lorna the warner, the bucket that carried the pond to the river. Yes. THAT crass.

Moffat and Gaiman went on to "accidentally" make it cannon that River/Melody was conceived on the bunk bed ladder by near simultaneously answering someone's question the same way.

[jkcarrier]

I thought maybe it was a reference to a "bucket list", since she fulfills her lifelong goal of meeting the Doctor again, and then immediately dies.

[michaelpaciocco]

Here's a question that watching "A good man goes to war" brings up:

It seems to me that a theme of Moffat's Who is a real condemnation of religion; the militarized Anglican church, that entire bit about the Headless Monks - anyone care to confirm that Moffat has a beef with Organized religion in general or a specific one?

It's also an interesting contrast with Davies-Era Who-as-Savior thing - I suspect that part of the larger theme here is to take away the more overtly religious/savior issues out of the Doctor.

[jensaltmann]

Jun 15, 2011 9:54:49 GMT -8 michaelpaciocco said:

I suspect that part of the larger theme here is to take away the more overtly religious/savior issues out of the Doctor.

I felt that was touched on pretty explicitly in A Good Man, through Lorena. When the Doctor came to her village, it was the defining moment of her life -- for him, it was Tuesday.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

(I also suspect that he didn't know who she was not because he had forgotten her, but because it' still in his future.)

But (was it) River (?) explained that for us Doctor means Healer, Wise Man, and suggested that it can be traced back to the Doctor and how he is seen on Earth, while on Lorena's world, Doctor means something like Brave Warrior.

Then there's, "I thought I'd never get done saving you." Just before his death. You don't get much more Jesus than that, especially if that will turn out the way I expect (with the death being needed to save the world or someting).

Plus, of course, there's the thing going around that by the end of this season, the Doctor's reputation will be nullified.



(Again, sorry, couldn't resist.)

So yes, I think it all adds up to that.

[jkcarrier]

Jun 15, 2011 9:54:49 GMT -8 michaelpaciocco said:

It seems to me that a theme of Moffat's Who is a real condemnation of religion; the militarized Anglican church, that entire bit about the Headless Monks

Although in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Octavian and co. are depicted as pretty ok guys. The Doctor doesn't seem to have any problem with them, and notes non-judgementally that "the Church evolved". I assume we'll see down the road how they got from there to "Grr, Doctor must die!"

re: The Headless Monks, I'm going to note my completely ridiculous theory, on the remote chance it turns out to be true: The Headless Monks are really Silents, who chopped off their own heads because it was the only way to prevent humans from attacking them on sight. This also mucked up their "forget me when you turn around" ability, so now they have to hide in plain sight.

[jensaltmann]

Jun 15, 2011 11:08:20 GMT -8 jkcarrier said:

Although in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Octavian and co. are depicted as pretty ok guys.

On the one hand, that's relative. On the other hand, it's contextual: the Doctor and the Church were working together. On the third hand, just because not everyone's rotten... That group might've been the exception that proves the rule.

I like your idea regarding the Silence/Headless Monks.

[paulpogue]

Also, Father Octavian and the Church military fighting the Angels happened some period of time AFTER "A Good Man," from River's perspective.