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Post by jessebaker on Sept 18, 2008 20:09:21 GMT -8
BTW this whole thing shouldn't even stand past the last issue of BNWTD, since Andy Diggle of "The Losers" fame is taking over as writer of Thunderbolts after Secret Invasion and the solicitations have stated that Mac is still going to be Venom.....
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Post by K-Box on Sept 18, 2008 21:03:00 GMT -8
BTW this whole thing shouldn't even stand past the last issue of BNWTD, since Andy Diggle of "The Losers" fame is taking over as writer of Thunderbolts after Secret Invasion and the solicitations have stated that Mac is still going to be Venom..... Not that I don't trust you, but ... well, okay, yeah, I don't trust you, since your readings can often veer from how others interpret them. Quote the solicitation copy here, and if you're right, I'll apologize. And if you're right, then Jesus Christ, what the fuck was the point of this whole exercise, aside from "Anti-Venom," since it answered no lingering questions and did nothing for the characters' post-OMD relationships? |
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Post by jessebaker on Sept 18, 2008 22:01:38 GMT -8
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Post by K-Box on Sept 18, 2008 22:15:22 GMT -8
Interesting.
Of course, this doesn't prove that Mac Gargan is still Venom, only that Venom is still on the Thunderbolts.
On the other hand, the alternative is even worse, because in order for Venom to be "psychotic and bloodthirsty," and not be Mac Gargan, it means that all of the character development that Eddie Brock is undergoing - which is the only good part of NWTD - will be completely undone by the end of the arc.
So, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
You're not proven right, but neither am I, and either way, the prognosis does not look good.
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Post by jensaltmann on Sept 19, 2008 1:28:32 GMT -8
Considering those pages you posted on LJ, about Norman injecting Gargan with a kind-of Venom venom to restore Venom to Gargan, it's entirely plausible that Gargan remains Venom. Or will turn back to being Venom after that Spidey arc.
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Post by K-Box on Sept 19, 2008 9:22:24 GMT -8
Considering those pages you posted on LJ, about Norman injecting Gargan with a kind-of Venom venom to restore Venom to Gargan, it's entirely plausible that Gargan remains Venom. Or will turn back to being Venom after that Spidey arc. Oh, I'll absolutely agree, which is why I say, either Jesse or I could be right. More importantly, Jesse is ultimately right on the much bigger issue, which is his implicit assertion that anything significant that happens in this arc will get undone. After all, if my earlier theory is right, and Eddie Brock gets turned back into "I want to eat your BRAINS!" Venom, then it pretty much undoes everything that Slott has done with the character. If Jesse's reading is right, then it renders the "Spider-Gasm" moment of "Brand New Scorpion" even more pointless than it already was. Either way, Jesse is still right, because it's proven that NuSpidey is now so divorced from its own past that it's engaging in retcons and reversals within a status quo that's already based on nothing but the same. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, because Bendis is writing Ultimate Origins, which irreconcilably contradicts every single thing that's ever been established about Peter Parker's family in Ultimate Spider-man, ALL OF WHICH BENDIS HIMSELF WROTE. |
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Post by K-Box on Sept 21, 2008 20:30:19 GMT -8
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Post by jensaltmann on Sept 22, 2008 0:22:03 GMT -8
Ah, sorry. I had linked to the actual thread, but I hadn't realized it's in the private folder over there. Sorry.
Anyway, the thread explains with an actual example that the official numbers are far far below the actual sales figures.
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Post by joegualtieri on Sept 27, 2008 20:20:49 GMT -8
Breevort and Whacker need to just start shutting up. Their recent itnerview with Brian Cronin was just... indefensible. goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/24/steve-wacker-chat-transcript/#more-19228Brian Cronin: Another suggestion for Spider-Man Family by a reader (it seems like folks view that book as a place to put their odd ideas) would be a “Re-Told Tales of Spider-Man” story, like the “Death of Jean DeWolff,” which involves Daredevil knowing Spider-Man’s ID as a major plot point.
Stephen Wacker: We’ll only be retelling one story. No need to retell anything else. It all happened.
Tom Brevoort joined the chat
Brian Cronin: Hi, Tom
Tom Brevoort: A Re-Told version of the “Death of Jean DeWolff” would be exactly like the published version.
Tom Brevoort: At that point, Daredevil knew Spidey’s identity.
Brian Cronin: Okay, so that goes to another reader question
Brian Cronin: So the identity change is one of those mystical things that didn’t change the past? Just the present?
Tom Brevoort: Only one thing was changed, and that’s the wedding.
Brian Cronin: But people don’t know Spider-Man’s ID who did before the wedding, right?
Tom Brevoort: Daredevil, the Goblin, Venom, etc. used to know that Pete was Spidey–but after a certain point their memories were erased. That changed as of around the time of “One More Day”. They used to know–everybody used to know–but now they don’t. Exactly how that happened will form the basis of an upcoming story. That just makes zero sense. I suppose Breevort and Whacker would reply that we need to wait and see out the explanation plays out, but surely DD and anyone else would ahve some sense of something being wrong. How does DD remember getting Spidey to save him during the Sin Eater story? Peter also comes off like an asshole' during and after "Ignition" Wally West went and revealed his ID again to most other superheroes, partially to help fill in gaps in their memory caused by what he had Hal do. Brian Cronin: Now, that is a major factor in my mind about having Peter be single, because Peter has NOT been de-aged, but it just feels that way, because when he was married, it seemed like he was 30 when the guy should be mid-20s tops.
Stephen Wacker: My ball park for Peter is mid-20s
Tom Brevoort: Pete is exactly the same nebulous age he was before OMD. He hasn’t been de-aged. We just play him a little younger, that’s all.
Tom Brevoort: When Spider-Man feels like he’s your dad’s age, you’ve got a serious problem.
...How old were Breevort's paretns when they had him? Tom Brevoort: There’ll be at least one writer involved with AMAZING #600. Ha fucking ha. Brian Cronin: One reader asked if there was any past Spider-man villain that you didn’t like at the time that you would like to see a writer revamp and make cool now.
[...]
Stephen Wacker: I’d like to see Kaine made into something interesting, too.
 I think that rated an emoticon. Brian Cronin: Speaking of romance in the supporting cast - what do you guys think - did Peter sleep with Betty Brant when she was married to Ned Leeds? That recently came up on the blog.
Tom Brevoort: No, Peter wouldn’t have slept with Betty while she was married. If he did, we’d be reading about it it huge self-tortured thought balloons for pages.
Ah, so that's there problem, no reading comprehension. And Jesse, before you chime in community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4280427.htmlOne of the big questions does look like it's going to be addressed soonish though: Brian Cronin: Are Liz and little Normie still around?
Stephen Wacker: Normie and Liz in December. Prepare for The Molten Kid!!!
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Post by K-Box on Sept 27, 2008 22:49:53 GMT -8
See, Joe, this is precisely why I scratch my head when you keep holding out hope that this thing might get better, because by your own admission, this thing is being masterminded by the mindless. Pretty much every single concept that these guys have about the characters and what they stand for is 100-percent wrong, and what's even worse is that, as you yourself have repeatedly conceded, their "logic" doesn't even make sense on its own terms. I mean, for fuck's sake, as much as I hated Chuck Austen's books, I never kept reading THOSE in the hope that they'd miraculously get better. You're SMARTER than that.
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Post by paulpogue on Sept 28, 2008 12:57:07 GMT -8
A couple of thoughts:
Of the hillion jillion things wrong with "OMD/BND", the issue of who knew what when is actually near the bottom of the pile. Hell, this is far from the first mass mindwipe ever done of a hero's ID -- Tony Stark and Wally West come immediately to mind. Of course, none has ever been dissected as thoroughly as this one, nor were they as ill-conceived. But honestly, the question of "How does DD remember exactly how the Sin-Eater played out?" can be pretty easily explained by the basic comic book trope of "when shit like this happens, people's minds sort of process around it into something that vaguely makes sense."
There are, however, two points that DO require explanation: The Civil War reveal, and the characters whose entire raison d'etre revolves around knowing who Peter really is. With CW, it's inconceivable that the Reeds and Tonys of the world wouldn't be at least vaguely concerned that a major thing happened that they just can't quite remember. And there are some characters out there (Masque comes to mind) who are paranoid enough about this that they back up their own memories regularly. (Seriously, Dr. Doom and T'Challa both totally know.) Admittedly, you could get past all of them with "It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense," but you're asking Tony Stark to chameleon-arch away a memory of one of the most important events of his adult life, one that indirectly led to Cap getting killed. It's one thing if nobody remembers the unmasking, but they've specifically said that everyone DOES remember the unmasking but has vaguely sort of forgotten how it happened.
The other bit are the characters who HAVE to know. Kaine comes immediately to mind (and hey, isn't it weird that Wacker brings him up yet AGAIN?), as does Venom. I suppose they've gotten around Venom by having the symbiote and Brock both remember hating Spider-Man but not Parker. And as for Kaine -- well, if they ever bring him back at all, it's inconceivable that this whole mess WON'T specifically address if he knows or not.
As for this: "Peter also comes off like an asshole"
I don't think that's been in question at all since this whole thing started.
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Post by hhbx on Sept 29, 2008 20:55:51 GMT -8
Amazing Spider-Man writer Dan Slott went on the record stating that the ending of issue #572 would be "just such a fricking cool Spider-Man moment" that "if you’re a Spider-Man fan you’ll experience a ‘Spider-Gasm.’" Fortunately, *snip!* ... Wait, that's IT??? Even in spite of my hatred of all things "NuSpidey," I was expecting SOMETHING more than this. I mean, seriously ... there HAS to be more to it than THIS. I don't even LIKE Slott's writing anymore, and I STILL can't believe that this was the "SPIDER-GASM" moment that he thought would knock our socks off. Even Slott at his WORST can't think that this was going to shock or thrill us THAT much ... could he? Well, you do have to admit Kirk, last time there was a spider-gasm at Marvel the story ended up with a dead MJ, so maybe Slott did intend for it to be a bad thing. |
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Post by joegualtieri on Oct 1, 2008 15:07:41 GMT -8
Kirk, the comics and the interviews are two sperate things. The comics, for now at least, are meeting an acceptable standard of quality for me. It probably doesn't help that I've been desperate for a good, new Spider-man comic for years and Marvel hasn't wanted to publish one for a long time. I'm enjoying the ride enough for now, but my patience with the series is wearing a bit. I'll probably keep pre-ordering it through Liz and Normie's appearence and Stern's issue, at least, but too many more negative writer changes* and I may leave sooner.
*Joe Kelly is a true comics one hit wonder, and nearly enough to make me drop the series. This is the downside of the Weekly format for the reader and for Marvel. The initial line-up was essentially perfect-- one guy I was dying to read on Spidey (Slott), two whose takes I was interested enough to read in this format (Gale and Wells), and one who wasn't enough of a turn-off to make me skip 3/12 issues (Guggenheim). Kelly is a serious turn off. Waid doesn't seem to get Spider-man (see House of M: Spider-man). If they had launched with the current rotation (excluding Stern, who just seems to be doing the one-off), I probably would have passed.
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Post by liliaeth on Oct 5, 2008 12:11:25 GMT -8
Kirk, the comics and the interviews are two sperate things. The comics, for now at least, are meeting an acceptable standard of quality for me. It probably doesn't help that I've been desperate for a good, new Spider-man comic for years and Marvel hasn't wanted to publish one for a long time. I'm enjoying the ride enough for now, but my patience with the series is wearing a bit. I'll probably keep pre-ordering it through Liz and Normie's appearence and Stern's issue, at least, but too many more negative writer changes* and I may leave sooner. that really makes me wonder what you consider 'acceptable' as Spider-Man stories, cause I honestly can't think of a single thing that's 'acceptable' about the current run. Spidey's no longer funny. He just thinks he is, but the humor falls flat at every attempted joke and makes him look like a jerk and a loser. Peter's completely and utterly out of character. Instead of a loveable underdog, he's a sleazy, slimy idiotic moronic asshole loser. The supporting cast is one dimensional and cliché. There are no more strong female characters. Harry Osborn feels more like the cliché playboy rather than like Harry Osborn. Peter feels like a middleaged loser who can't be allowed to be good at anything. In fact to me right now ASM feels like it's being written by republicans. You know, kinda like they turned Spidey into Sarah Palin, a symbol of mediocrity because that's the only thing the writers can relate to. Not the every nerd, or the hero, but a total loser who screws up 90% of what he does. The villains are knock offs and utterly lame. Some might have had potential with better writers, but quite honestly, the current writers just aren't good enough to pull them off. Peter hasn't had a single true victory since BND started. Once again, making him look like a loser. Jackpot is the worst idea ever. If she is MJ, then they've smeared her awesomeness. If she isn't, then they've just been playing with the readers which once again is stupid as hell. Basically the pacing is all wrong. Even if I had been interested in the current stories, which I'm not, the lack of answers only makes it clearer how little story they have to tell. They've succeeded in making me hate the mechanical webshooters and turned them from a symbol of his intelligence into a symbol of his incompetence. Not only that, they made it clear how little story they had for the webshooters by overly repeating the same plot of something happening with the webshooters. Not a single one of them thought to make a point of showing the coolness of the webshooters, because that's not how they see them. Slott has made it clear over and over that he doesn't get Peter Parker. I've had a discussion with him on Newsarama and he made it clear even then that he just doesn't know who Peter Parker is or what makes him popular. But then I already knew that after reading his FCD issue, which already sucked enough as it were. And they've actually succeeded in making me want to see aunt May die and stay dead, by making her utterly useless. Right now DC's Blue Beetle feels more like Peter Parker than ASM does. |
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Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 5, 2008 13:06:26 GMT -8
That's because Blue Beetle is about a smart, competent and caring individual trying to do his best to save people and make a positive impact on the world, which goes against everything that modern Marvel and DC stand for.
Now, let us wait for Jesse to reply...
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