|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 6, 2011 6:56:56 GMT -8
Yes, but in that case you either have to
A) GM Fiat it so that doesn't happen. B) Calmly explain to the player that he's going against genre (wolverine doesn't stabe unconscious people) C) RP out the ramfications. "OK, you just murdered a defenseless opponent. Congrats, you're in jail now."
|
|
|
Post by Anders on Jan 6, 2011 12:53:39 GMT -8
Yes, but in that case you either have to A) GM Fiat it so that doesn't happen. B) Calmly explain to the player that he's going against genre (wolverine doesn't stabe unconscious people) C) RP out the ramfications. "OK, you just murdered a defenseless opponent. Congrats, you're in jail now." Yes, you "have" to do that - if the system is set up that way. It doesn't have to be.
|
|
|
Post by jarddavis on Jan 6, 2011 16:17:47 GMT -8
This is exactly my point. The rules matter. They do, but so does the story. Again, Any good game master knows when to throw out the rules in order to make the story progress. The rules say quite specifically you can't have a 2d6 rka without paying for it. But any idiot can pick up a discarded gun in the game. Do we have to adhere specifically to the rule that you can't use Foxbat's Ping Pong Ball Gun cause it just happens to be lying around and Exo-Skelton Man has got the Centipede mobile on full destructo mode? Or do we ere on the side of story telling?
|
|
|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 6, 2011 16:46:48 GMT -8
Well, that's the thing - you can't really force a player into respecting the tropes - and quite frankly, if he's using Wolverine as his go-to arguement, it suggests that one of you is clearly misunderstanding what is going on. I really don't know how to help you here.
|
|
|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 6, 2011 21:28:36 GMT -8
OK, maybe to help this discussion a bit, I'm going to get into a little detail on the superhero gaming I've done.
"Noble Investigations" - A "superhero noir" set in a Blade-Runner esque city where the superhero community environment could best be compared to the Stark-era SHRA (two communities of superheroes - those who work with law enforcement, and those who don't and are hunted by those that do). The group is trying to make it as PI firm while not revealing their super-powers to the public or authorities. I took a little bit from the first season (and the first 3/4 of the second season) of Angel. Turned out pretty good - yes, there were bad guys who died (usually in hail of bullets) but even then it caused a lot of tension within the partnership and strained relationship.
THE GUARD - I'm currently running the second version of this game. The high concept is based very heavily in Ellis-Era Stormwatch: A UN-affiliated superhuman peace keeping task force is reassembled several years after most of the previous team was slaughtered by the team's archenemy, a Nazi Vampire Mad Scientist (It's like Supervillain Neopolitian! Three classic flavors in one package!). The prime mover of the team is Red Dragon (I know I know lazy name) - a Chinese Super-Soldier, whom I created by asking myself "What if Steve Rogers had been born in China?" and built up a fairly complex origin based on that (which isn't really that Rogers-like at all). Other NPCs of note include an Australian bisexual punk sorceress who is Kirk/Bond like in her conquests, a chubby Egyptian nerd who has jury-rigged a 20 foot combat robot out of scrap components gathered from superbattles, and a half-mad brainwashed alien who serves as the government of Turkmenistan's personal super-enforcer. It's pretty high-level world-saving superheroics, and (in part because of the difficulty of implementing non-lethal solutions in the Palladium system) yes, the team sometimes kills as a last resort. But this becomes a focus because it highlights how lethal those powers are and how they need to be restrained and controlled responsibly (ahem).
The Faculty - this was probably one of my most experimental campaigns - the PCs were all retired supers (many of whom had failed in their careers in some way) and become the teaching staff of a supers highschool. Mostly I ran this one as a response to the many many "X-school" games that were popular at the time (I blame "Sky High" and the first couple X-films), because well, I have no desire to RP myself as a highschooler, and I thought the idea of taking a fresh perspective and mining richer background stories - you could also think of it as "PS238 meets the Venture Brothers" considering quite a few of the teachers were serious failures as heroes, and trying to teach students the lessons they learned from their mistakes.
"Strange World" - In a world where superpowers are thought to be the stuff of comic books, until a group of university friends (the players) had a strange cosmic encounter and developed powers. They were then attacked my mysterious Men-In-Black Agent types with other abilities, and struggled to figure out what to do with their powers. At least until one of them got shot in the head and remembered who he REALLY was, which was that he was the immortal demigod son of Loki who was nearly 100 years old and that the world actually was a world of superhumans until the villains and heroes had a final war and the villains sort of rewrote reality, but the heroes planted in a "backdoor" to allow them the chance to win again. Yes, this was based on a very simple idea "What if WANTED wasn't a nihilistic evil piece of crap? Oh, that's right, it'd be an awesome tale of heroes against impossible odds! Let's do that!" The real crux of this game was what to do with those powers, and how to keep the Villains, who had amassed so much power (controlling the world behind the scenes, and having decades of experience with their abilities, as well as virtually limitless resources) from killing them off. This one was tense, and if hadn't been for some player drama, it probably would have been my favorite campaign of all time.
So, yeah, I'm not really shy about killing, though in my games, I either nerf a way of keeping them out of the fight after they've bene knocked out, or I simply acknowledge that the genre trope does have its limits. I also take pains to educate the players in their mistakes if they're hellbent on being mini-Wolverines. For example, in the GUARD, the Turkmenistan guy is kill-happy, and he's openly mocked by the rest of the team for being a brainwashed thug.
|
|
|
Post by Anders on Jan 7, 2011 0:08:52 GMT -8
Okay, a couple of points.
One, again, I'm not disputing that a good GM knows when to toss the rules. My point is that when you have a system that supports the genre you don't need to do that nearly as much. That's all.
I'm not saying Champions/Hero System is a bad game. I've played it myself, and I like it. I like the tactical combat and I like fiddling with power creation. But, again, I don't think it supports superhero stories very well. Yes, a good GM can handle that anyway. But with a supportive system, the GM doesn't need to handle that off-the-cuff; it's there already, like a GM doesn't need to improvise rules for guns in Champions because the rules are there.
In Champions, the players are not rewarded by the system for adhering to the tropes of superhero stories. They can be rewarded by the GM, but that's a different issue. As a counter-example, the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG did have such a reward mechanic, in that you got Karma for doing "good deeds". (Which is not to say that game or that mechanic are "better" than Champions for playing superheroes or any other kind of value judgement.)
And just to be clear: I'm not accusing anyone of BadWrongFun; I'm not saying "You're doing it wrong"; I'm not saying that you should use some other system for your gaming if what you have is working for you. I am definitely not trying to convince you there is a problem with your gaming in any way.
The reason I made the initial post on RPGNet was that I think that if you started from what superhero stories are about you arrive at a very different set of priorities than if you start by trying to simulate superhero characters. I reposted it here to get some input from people I know really know the superhero side of things, and while the discussion here has been interesting it has tilted quite far away from that into practical GMing, which, while an interesting subject in and of itself, I've done to death in other places (mainly with the guys I normally play with).
Anyway. Without trying to stifle the rest of the discussion if you guys want to keep it going, I'd like to get back to that point.
|
|
|
Post by Anders on Jan 7, 2011 0:12:56 GMT -8
As a sidenote on that scrawl, I really enjoyed the writeups of your games Mike!
|
|
|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 7, 2011 20:25:04 GMT -8
As a sidenote on that scrawl, I really enjoyed the writeups of your games Mike! Admit it, you're now working on your own Nazi Vampire Mad Scientist, aren't you? (yes, I looove saying that)
|
|
|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 7, 2011 20:26:26 GMT -8
The Palladium system has a few items of this in their experience point system - you get points for avoiding "unneccessary violence" and "obeying your alignment". And for going against your alignment, there's the fact that insanities are usual invoked against your character.
|
|
|
Post by Anders on Jan 8, 2011 1:53:43 GMT -8
As a sidenote on that scrawl, I really enjoyed the writeups of your games Mike! Admit it, you're now working on your own Nazi Vampire Mad Scientist, aren't you? Not right at this moment, he said, shuffling some notes out of view. I'm judging it fairly likely we will bump into one in a game I'm playing in, though. There are plenty of Nazi Mad Scientists (it's a supernatural WWII setting), but so far the only vampire-like things are on our side.
|
|
|
Post by jkcarrier on Jan 9, 2011 7:06:35 GMT -8
In a tough fight with high stakes, the players may be forced to make a choice between winning and behaving unheroically, not because it's appropriate for their characters but because the rules force the choice upon them. Sure, but making the choice between what's expedient and what's moral is itself a big part of the genre. The only thing stopping Superman from vaporizing Luthor with his heat vision is his moral convictions. If doing the right thing is always easy (i.e., gives you optimal results under the rules), then where's the challenge in being a hero?
|
|
|
Post by Anders on Jan 9, 2011 11:06:04 GMT -8
But moral choices need to be interesting if they are to add anything.
Do you let the villain fall to his death or risk your life trying to grab him? Interesting.
Do you chase after the villain if it means leaving one of his henchmen lying next to a burning car? Interesting
Do you risk your secret identity to stop the villain from robbing a bank? From killing someone? From poisoning the water supply? Interesting.
Do you punch a mook an extra time when he's down so you're sure he won't get up? Not interesting.
|
|
|
Post by jarddavis on Jan 9, 2011 12:25:33 GMT -8
In Villains and Vigilantes, your Charisma score increases/decreases depending upon your conduct throughout the game.
|
|
|
Post by michaelpaciocco on Jan 29, 2011 18:00:10 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by lostphrack on Jan 30, 2011 23:07:53 GMT -8
This thread makes me miss my RPG days. And that is an awesome looking pic man. Is the guy at the top one of the Spluggogogogogogogorths minion races? The pink ones...
|
|