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Oct 6, 2009 11:50:40 GMT -8
Post by Anders on Oct 6, 2009 11:50:40 GMT -8
Leonard Nimoy Spock vs. Richard Roundtree Shaft And then they join forces to fight Klingon crime?
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Oct 6, 2009 12:11:21 GMT -8
Post by paulpogue on Oct 6, 2009 12:11:21 GMT -8
Shaft vs. Kwai Chang Caine vs. a Dragon OH WAIT THAT ALREADY HAPPENED!!!!!
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Oct 6, 2009 15:39:28 GMT -8
Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 6, 2009 15:39:28 GMT -8
Leonard Nimoy Spock vs. Richard Roundtree Shaft And then they join forces to fight Klingon crime? Nope, each other - Spock has to solve a temporal anomaly/paradox, but the only way to do it involves him going head to head with Shaft.
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Oct 6, 2009 22:41:13 GMT -8
Post by jensaltmann on Oct 6, 2009 22:41:13 GMT -8
I have Q on DVD. The booklet is signed by David Carradine.
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Oct 7, 2009 15:07:47 GMT -8
Post by paulpogue on Oct 7, 2009 15:07:47 GMT -8
AWESOME!
(For those who don't know, "Q" is a film about two cops, played by Richard Roundtree and David Carradine, chasing a mythic serpent through the city streets. Two things make it noteworthy: First off, it is completely and totally structured around not the horror movie archetype, but a 1970s police procedural -- it's as if there was an episode of "The Streets of San Francisco" where the perp just happened to be an ancient dragon. And secondly, right in the middle of this whole mess is a now-near-legendary performance by Michael Moriarty as a small-time crook determined to cash in on the crisis, and he seems to have been imported from some completely different movie. More than one critic has called Moriarty the only saving grace of the film, which just goes to show that some film critics do not understand the value of SHAFT AND CAINE VS A DRAGON.
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Oct 7, 2009 23:06:45 GMT -8
Post by jensaltmann on Oct 7, 2009 23:06:45 GMT -8
Even Carradine didn't. From how he told it, Moriarty's character was the central character of the movie, and he and Roundtree were supporting cast.
Me, I always considered Q a Carradine-feature, pretty much the way you just described it.
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Oct 9, 2009 1:10:48 GMT -8
Post by jensaltmann on Oct 9, 2009 1:10:48 GMT -8
Federation vs. Empire: Clearly, Q plays a trick on them, because the Empire rules "a galaxy far far away." Or they slipped through a wormhole.
Anyway. Here, the question is which Enterprise we're talking about: Kirk or Picard. I'm going with Picard for the moment, because they are 100 years more technologically advanced.
And still, a single Star Destroyer dwarfs any Galaxy- or Souvereign class starship. You also need to remember that the Federation's ships are primarily geared towards exploration, not war, while the Empire's ships are pure warships. They outmatch the Federation in firepower by an order of several magnitudes. The Empire would send out TIE fighters to buzz the Federation ships and disctract them, meanwhile lining up the shots. Advantage: Empire. Plus, being warships, I imagine the Empire's ships have stronger shields than the Federation's. Again, advantage: Empire. Plus, as it was pointed out elsewhere, the Empire forces outnumber the Federation's troops. Advantage: Empire. Finally, the Empire is ruthless and merciless. The Federation wouldn't stand a chance.
From where I sit, the Federation has only two advantages: Warp speed seems to be faster than the Empire's hyperdrives. Plus: transporter technology. But considerig the overwhelming advantages of the Empire, that wouldn't be enough to even the odds. The Federation's only hope would be an alliance with the Rebellion. Even then, the Rebellion essentially only got lucky each time they won.
Want to make things really interesting: Try matching the Empire vs. the Borg.
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Oct 9, 2009 7:29:52 GMT -8
Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 9, 2009 7:29:52 GMT -8
Ah...because you can't truly call yourself a geek until you've weighed in on the eternal Trek/Wars debate.
Alright, here's how I break it down. And like most others, I'll be going with TNG/DS9 up until Nemesis Federation vs. the Empire circa Empire Strikes Back. I'm also not counting the Death Star in this matter.
SIZE Federation: The Federation, as a region, is approx ~8% of the Milky Way. Empire: The Old Republic/Empire spans at the very least an area equivalent to the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant. Advantage: Empire, in a big way
MANPOWER Empire: Has clones cranked out by the hundreds, as well as human only officers (IIRC) Federation: Does not have clones, but does actually draw on a diverse group of species, some of which have extra-human capabilities (Vulcan strength and speed are at least equivalent to a Wookie, for example). And for the sake of ease, we'll keep both the force and any telepathic/mind-meld abilities off the table. But pure physical capabilities should count for something. Advantage: Empire. Sheer numbers win this one out.
Command Centers
Federation: Keeps all their ranking officers at the center of a goddamn bullseye where one lucky shot can cripple the entire ship. Empire: Keeps all their ranking officers at the front center of the goddamn conning tower, where one lucy shot (or say, ramming by an already dead fighter pilot) can cripple the entire ship Advantage: The Battlestars of the Twelve Colonies (Sorry, bad joke here, but hey, it's worth it and it's the only technological advantage BSG would EVER have).
MILITARY HISTORY: Empire: Has fought what amounts to a 30 year non-stop civil war, preceded by centuries of calm and peace. Federation: Has spent the better part of 200 years in relative peace, peppered by several major and minor conflicts to the effect that they've had very few years of peace. Consider the number of wars and conflicts the Federation has weathered: Several major Borg incursions, the Klingon Cold War, the Cardassian War, the Dominion War, and various other minor wars that pepper TNG history. And each time, they've survived and adapted. Advantage: Federation. The Empire's only tactic is that of overwhelming numbers and brute force. Anything else the Federation has seen, learned from, and adapted to.
FTL Empire: Hyperdrives are relatively slow and do not allow for combat at FTL, but have greater overall range (remember what I said about Imperial reach?) Federation: Warp Drive is faster and allows for FTL combat. Advantage: Tactically, it goes to the Federation. Strategically it goes to the Empire.
Sublight Drives: Empire: has a mix of high-speed and maneuverable craft (fighters) as well as slower, and much less maneuverable capabilites (Star Destroyers) Federation: Starships have a high degree of maneuverability and speed that exceeds that of a Star Destroyer, but not a fighter Advanatage: Empire
Resources and Production Federation: has matter rearrangement and replicator technology to get gear out faster and with a greater degree of precision. Empire: Has a large amount of raw resources to draw upon, but requires greater labor and effort in construction of materials, particularly shipbuilding. Advantage: Too close to call.
Shield technology: Empire: Has effective and powerful shields designed around massive brute force attacks, but ineffective against smaller objects. Primary shIeld generation is provided by those domes on the tops of the Star Destroyers (correct?) Shields are ineffective against Ion Weaponry, which can disable ships. Federation: Has shield technology that deflects most attacks and is effective against all forms of attack large and small. No noted vulnerabilities. Primary shield generation is the main deflector dish. Advantage: Federation. After the initial engagement, the Federation optimizes their shield frequencies for Imperial weaponry (more on that later), and noting the Imperial ionic weakness, procedes to use that to maximum ship-killing advantage. The Feds are also likely to adapt phaser/photon torpedo/quantum torpedoes for maximum effectiveness against Imperial shields, as well as the transporters.
Primary Weapons: Empire: Has plentiful weaponry mounted on slow moving turrets. Overall effective is massive overwhelming firepower, but effective accuracy against fast-moving targets is low except at relatively close range. Federation: Phasers, Photon and Quantum torpodeos have near surgical precision and (to quote Jard), planet-cracking firepower even at extreme distances against large targets (against smaller targets, such as Dominion ships, not as much, but still good) even when large targets are moving at high speed (They always manage to hit the Borg Cubes, even if they don't do much damage). Federation weapons have also shown adaptability for maximum effective damage against shields by frequency tuning. Advantage: Federation. I know this one is going to be controversial because I'm arguing quality against quantity, and everyone likes to use the German vs. US tank example where it's numbers that would count. My counter-example is a couple of F-22 fighter jets against a fleet of B-52s with Mig-22 fighter support. Range and accuracy account for something, and you can't hit what you never see in range.
Sensor Technology: Empire: Relies on probes. Ship sensors are relatively short range. Federation: Has long range sensors that scan at beyond solar-system distances with surprising accuracy. Advantage: Federation.
Communications: Federation: Has reliable and rapid FTL communication across great distances. Empire: has much slower communications. Advantage: Federation
Computing power: Federation: the Usage of things like solid-light constructs, nanotechnology, and the transporter, suggest incredibly powerful and advanced computational techology. Empire: While Astromech droids show incredible computational ability and other AI exists, normal computational powers are somewhat limited. Advantage: Federation, who will do their level best to hack into Imperial computer systems to maximum effect.
Intelligence: Federation: has had useful and successful intelligence services that have lead to useful intelligence to be used in combat. Empire: You're joking right? I could make a separate thread of all the Empire's intell failures, and this is with a couple of damn precogs running the show. Advantage: Federation.
Troop Transport: Federation: Has the transporter for rapid deployment and exfiltration. Empire: Does not. Advantage: Federation. They can beam a Tri-cobalt bomb aboard the command deck (or engine control room) of a Star Destroyer and warp out on their merry way. They can beam out troops before the Stormtroopers arrive and leave holograms and cloaked mines in their place. Etc.
VICTOR: I think it's best to leave it to the individual's imagination and perspective. My own opinion? This is a Batman vs. an Army of Hulks (or the Hyperclan from the first Grant Morrison JLA arc) thing- yes the Empire is massively larger and more powerful, but DUMB. Incredibly, blissfully ignorant, and with a couple of major tactical weaknesses (the ion thing) that the Federation would ruthlessly exploit. But yes, numbers count, so I would say that it's a close one, by any standard.
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Oct 9, 2009 8:03:20 GMT -8
Post by Anders on Oct 9, 2009 8:03:20 GMT -8
You have thought about this far, far more than I ever have, but I find I agree with you on all points (with maybe a minor quibble here or there). However, I think that even if the Federation wins every fleet engagement they're ever involved in, they just won't be able to protect their planets from the massive numbers of the Empire (or Republic, or whatever era you want to match up to keep with the show vs. show thing): they'll be able to send a fleet to pretty much every major inhabited planet of the Federation and bomb the crap out of them. Okay, so how about B5 vs. BSG?
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Oct 9, 2009 8:31:40 GMT -8
Post by jarddavis on Oct 9, 2009 8:31:40 GMT -8
Fleet vs. Fleet Empire vs. Federation, based soly on ship capabilities.
It doesn't matter how many fighters you have. Their fast, but still only able to fight at sublight speeds, and they're unshielded.
A photon torpedo generates enough of an explosive force as to be capable of destroying your own vessel if you are close enough and are not shielded.
A single Galaxy glass starship has been seen firing what essentially can be considered a MIRV warhead of pt's.
The fighter advantage is taken away by the phalanx tactic.
The Galaxy glass ships are exploration vehicles. The Soverign's are not. (ALthough some websites consider them such.) For one thing, the Soverign has a huge number of weapons arrays compared to the Galaxy glass. For another, there are no families on a Soverign class. That said, both the Galaxy Class and the Soverign class seems ill suited to combat. The Soverign did well against the Borg, but not as well vs. the Soran (?) and the Remun Scimitar.
The Defiant on the other hand...
The Defiant is a pure warship. Capable of going against vessels several times it's size. It's Overpowered and overgunned with standard federation technology and the addition of Ablative armor. Highly manuverable. The DEFIANT's only drawback, from a federation standpoint, is a lack of sensors and scientific research capability.
Against the Empire, it'd be devistating.
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Oct 9, 2009 8:32:06 GMT -8
Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 9, 2009 8:32:06 GMT -8
This is far from my first time at this debate. I've had practice, and have often been lambasted for not picking a side in the Trek vs. Wars battle of the franchises because I see it going either way.
The Dominion (which is the closest the ST universe has ever had to an Empire analogue in terms of resources and tactics) could only pull this off on a limited scale. Major Federation planets would have planetary defenses (i.e. replicating minefields, which may or may not be cloaked) that would make orbital bombardment a difficult proposition. And again, once the Imperial Ion weakness is discovered, Starfleet will be mass-replicating ion-guns for every planet. Nevermind that Starfleet's superior sensors mean that they'll be able to detect Imperial fleets from likely a great distance away.
Just Earth vs. the Colonies? That's a close match. The minute any Vorlon/Minbari/Shadow/First Races technology becomes involved (i.e. the White Stars)? BSG is well and truly fucked.
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Oct 9, 2009 8:35:58 GMT -8
Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 9, 2009 8:35:58 GMT -8
. The Defiant on the other hand... The Defiant is a pure warship. Capable of going against vessels several times it's size. It's Overpowered and overgunned with standard federation technology and the addition of Ablative armor. Highly manuverable. The DEFIANT's only drawback, from a federation standpoint, is a lack of sensors and scientific research capability. Against the Empire, it'd be devistating. Especially once you consider that it is comparable in size (and sublight speed and maneurability) to the Millenium Falcon.
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Oct 9, 2009 8:55:38 GMT -8
Post by paulpogue on Oct 9, 2009 8:55:38 GMT -8
Just Earth vs. the Colonies? That's a close match. The minute any Vorlon/Minbari/Shadow/First Races technology becomes involved (i.e. the White Stars)? BSG is well and truly fucked. Agreed -- close call between the strictly human-scale (or even toaster-scale) levels of technologies. But all bets are off once you bring in the trans-human elements -- if the Vorlons are involved, there's every chance that BSG God will also become involved. Which means that Earth gets trashed in the end, but only after fifty episodes of rube goldberg-like schemes topped off by a massive Deus ex Machina.
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Oct 9, 2009 9:06:49 GMT -8
Post by michaelpaciocco on Oct 9, 2009 9:06:49 GMT -8
Actually, that's something JMS and Ronald Moore seem to have in common.
"So, you're being jerked around by a higher being that has a specific destiny for you?" "Yeah, you?" "Same."
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Oct 9, 2009 9:39:15 GMT -8
Post by jbhelfrich on Oct 9, 2009 9:39:15 GMT -8
Of course, the difference is that JMS characters would proceed to flip the 'god' off, while Moore's would settle down to rebuild and forget about all the unanswered questions.
*sigh* Battlestar ultimately will probably end up in the same mental bucket for me as DS9: a wonderful story totally undercut by its last act.
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